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Request For Help: cobra2html via Pygments

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Re: Request For Help: cobra2html via Pygments

Postby Charles » Wed Jun 05, 2013 10:01 pm

Regarding my plans to replace Trac and phpBB with something Cobra-based, I see this all the time with various languages. Their sites often run their own software written in the given language for all the obvious reasons (test driving the language, providing another sample code base, control over the site, etc.). There is nothing abnormal about that approach. If you've really been looking at other languages, you've already seen this phenomena.

Regarding docs, if you want to start Cobra docs with the approach and format you prefer, go for it. It could end up being the formal book and the wiki could be used for less formal things that don't go in the book.

Also, if you're not going to use Cobra because you don't like Trac, then you wouldn't have used Cobra anyway. You would have run into another thing that you didn't like and that would have been your ejection button.

But let's say I'm wrong and the only thing standing between you and Cobra is Trac. Suppose we move to bitbucket which appears to be your preference. You know what happens next, right? Someone else comes along and says they won't use Cobra because it's not on github. And so on.
Charles
 
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Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Request For Help: cobra2html via Pygments

Postby gourD » Thu Jun 06, 2013 1:11 am

Charles wrote:Regarding docs, if you want to start Cobra docs with the approach and format you prefer, go for it. It could end up being the formal book and the wiki could be used for less formal things that don't go in the book.


I'm sorry but I'm not ready to take a risk working considerable time on such docs with the provision that "If it turns into something, I'll be happy to include the current snapshot of it with each Cobra release."
Also, if you're not going to use Cobra because you don't like Trac, then you wouldn't have used Cobra anyway. You would have run into another thing that you didn't like and that would have been your ejection button.

But let's say I'm wrong and the only thing standing between you and Cobra is Trac. Suppose we move to bitbucket which appears to be your preference. You know what happens next, right? Someone else comes along and says they won't use Cobra because it's not on github. And so on.


My problem with Cobra is not Trac but your resistance to change. I did offer suggestion to improve current workflow, but the seed fell on the barren land. :cry:

Let me say that I did suggest Bitbucket over Github (most of the projects I follow are under GH) since it offers ability for downloads which would mean less admin work for you. Same with idea to get rid of Trac and use external tracker.

Moreover, proposal for putting docs under VCS on Bitbucket was to accommodate your current workflow of being accustomed to edit everything in wiki online and to provide opportunity for people which prefer doing it offline within their preffered tools.

However, you dismissed the idea with stuff like 'YAGNI', 'no benefit' and now I see that your's 'I agree with hopscc's comments'.

I've found mature language with nice syntax and plenty of docs, tools support etc. and can focus on learning the language and work on my project instead of writing forum messages suggesting things which are already there in the present project. The only dilemma which I have now is which textbook to buy. 8-)

Still, I'm thankful to you, Charles, for bringing me onto .NET/Mono platform and wishing you all the best with your project. ;)
gourD
 
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Location: Hlapičina (Croatia)

Re: Request For Help: cobra2html via Pygments

Postby hopscc » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:13 am

Whats the risk if it turns into something?
What do you want/expect ?
- 'We'll take whatever you generate in whatever form, sight unseen, quality unknown and put it with the current release"

I'd say my 'resistance to change' is more correctly characterised as 'resistance to change for which the advantages arent presented/quantified'
(or change for the sake of it)

To be fair to Charles the "you dismissed the idea with stuff like 'YAGNI', 'no benefit'" was me.
( I dont speak for Charles and vice versa though occasionally we find agreement :) ).

To reiterate I still dont see what the specific benefits are for what you suggested/proposed.
All I've seen is that your rationale is 'thats what everyone else does' and 'its better'

i.e My q still is what are the benefits to current (doc) workflow (such as it is) or expected benefits to a changed one for the changes you want
Is it only the "opportunity for people which prefer doing it offline within their preferred tools" (offline)?

I skimmed the book you linked to - Lotta interesting stuff there but it seems a little dated with ref to use of maillists vs possibilities for forum/fori, wikis and websites for communication (to me at least - dated from 2005-2013)
and
wrt doc gen it doesnt suggest/mandate anything like the workflow setup you want.

Just out of general interest/nosiness what Language/project did you decide on ?

Luck for whatever you decide to do..
hopscc
 
Posts: 631
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Re: Request For Help: cobra2html via Pygments

Postby gourD » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:24 am

hopscc wrote:Just out of general interest/nosiness what Language/project did you decide on ?

F#
Luck for whatever you decide to do..

Thanks. Wishing you the same. ;)
gourD
 
Posts: 40
Location: Hlapičina (Croatia)

Re: Request For Help: cobra2html via Pygments

Postby torial » Thu Jun 06, 2013 10:03 am

gourD, I think a lot of what you are running into is a culture difference coupled with timing constraints.

People that come up with ideas are very common, but people who will work on them, not so much. Even less, are people who have staying power on a project.

If I had to describe it, this perceived "resistance to change" is more of a barrier to entry, not a true resistance to change. Take for instance the work that NerdZero has done on the MonoDevelop plugin. Once some traction was made with it, Charles started modifying some of the internal Cobra API so that it was easier for MonoDevelop to work on it.

AFAICT, despite the fact that this is Charles' baby, he has obligations and real life that hits him just like it does for any other would be volunteer, and so then the question comes down to: what is worth his time to focus on? Administrative changes (like Trac --> something else, or different source control) might seem painless and trivial to you but if you already have a working process, it is very jarring to shift. If you notice, the things that both Hops and Charles were *most* open to was the stuff that didn't disrupt their development process or require their administrative oversight and unknown quantities of their time.
torial
 
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Re: Request For Help: cobra2html via Pygments

Postby Charles » Thu Jun 06, 2013 2:40 pm

gourD wrote:
Charles wrote:Regarding docs, if you want to start Cobra docs with the approach and format you prefer, go for it. It could end up being the formal book and the wiki could be used for less formal things that don't go in the book.


I'm sorry but I'm not ready to take a risk working considerable time on such docs with the provision that "If it turns into something, I'll be happy to include the current snapshot of it with each Cobra release."


Hmmm, "take a risk working considerable time"? What do you think I've done by putting my time into Cobra? Same with hopscc. Same with nerdzero on the IDE support.

gourD wrote:However, you dismissed the idea with stuff like 'YAGNI', 'no benefit' and now I see that your's 'I agree with hopscc's comments'.


Well technically (and we're technical people after all), the first two comments were from hopscc, but yeah, I mostly agree with his comments. I just cranked out a couple of wiki pages today. It worked great.

gourD wrote: The only dilemma which I have now is which textbook to buy. 8-)


You're in love with having a text book. I get it. I'm in love with having a wiki. So I made one.
Charles
 
Posts: 2510
Location: Los Angeles, CA

Re: Request For Help: cobra2html via Pygments

Postby gourD » Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:17 pm

Charles wrote:You're in love with having a text book. I get it.


Sure. It's a good indicator about project's health. ;)

I'm in love with having a wiki. So I made one.


8-) All the best!

Now you can terminate my forum account.
gourD
 
Posts: 40
Location: Hlapičina (Croatia)

Re: Request For Help: cobra2html via Pygments

Postby hopscc » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:39 am

Thats an interesting opinion - 'Language book as indicator of projects health"

At one stage the only way of learning about a language was a textbook ( usually 'The XXX programming Language') though interestingly this predated widespread internet/web presence access...

Now though I opine that a language book is an afterthought (perhaps as an income generator) since all the content is usually already online
(though perhaps not in such a linear, follow in one stream, layered and aggregative presentation form)...
What would be the point since the thing you may do with a language textbook is (read, learn, reflect then) sit at a computer and rekey, compile, run,examine and modify the book code..
Now it seems the read-learn-reflect can also be done at a computer (much faster though perhaps less comprehensively)...

Textbook more useful now perhaps as an intro/overview/philosophy/strategy-of-language presentation (adjunct to the online doc content).....
hopscc
 
Posts: 631
Location: New Plymouth, Taranaki, New Zealand

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